Now that just warms my atheist heart
Feb. 9th, 2009 10:18 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
aprilstarchild
Story Here!
There was a campaign on buses in England, paid for by a Humanist group, that just says: "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."
Christian groups predictably threw a hissy fit.
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no subject
Date: 2009-02-10 03:27 pm (UTC)While I think it's definitely important to respect people's opinions on things that are a matter of opinion (whether movie X is good, whether you like cusine Y), for me this is not in that realm. I don't feel that I should have to respect the opinion of someone who decides that gravity doesn't exist and that our feet are magnetized, or someone who ignores the MOUNTAINS of evidence for evolution and still chooses to pretend that humans were created as-is, or people who believe that glittery unicorns exist. These are NOT matters of opinion.
Can you imagine what the world would be like if we had to respect everyone's "opinion" even if it flew in the face of scientific knowledge? "Hey, you can't walk across the street there, that's where the endangered Jibbaflob bug is nesting right now! They're invisible! OMG YOU'RE KILLING THEM."
Not to mention the implications this would have for the discipline of history (among others, I'm sure). We can never know EXACTLY what happened in the past, but evidence helps us get as close as possible. If we're throwing out all knowledge that we can't know with 100% certainty and just declaring such problems as matters of individual opinion...well, then, that just sounds really scary for history.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 04:28 am (UTC)I was saying that one should try to respect people even if one doesn't respect their opinions or think that they are treating something as an opinion which seems to you to be a fact.
I don't respect the opinion that gay people are terrible, and it would be hard for me to respect a person who felt that way, but I would honestly try to do so, because I think that it doesn't help anyone for me to disrespect that person even if I disrespect their opinion.
Where I have a problem with the modern atheist movement is that sometimes I think it encourages a wholesale scorn of all religions and all people who practice religions/believe in a god or something like that/aren't atheists. A very superior attitude is often taken which doesn't seem to net any actual good for anyone and probably actually causes harm both to the atheist cause and to interpersonal relationships.
Like I said above, I was taught to disrespect "stupid" people by my parents and spent years of my childhood really believing that I was somehow "better" because I had better grades or a higher IQ or more achievements, etc. But in recent years, and partly as a result of spiritual exploration perhaps not coincidentally, I have come to believe that thinking myself better, wiser, more intelligent than others and spending time looking down at other people is a toxic behavior. It leads to alienating other people, concentrating on differences when I could concentrate on similarities and actually feeling worse and alienated myself.
I'm not a huge Obama fan (I voted for him, but you probably know Kucinich is my real favorite), but he is very big on being a "uniter" and everyone seems really into this energy right now of working together. The point I'm making here is simply that while I don't disagree significantly with the modern atheist movement in their ideas or even their aims (I think it's very important to separate church and state, church and education), I do disagree with the approach often presented and the across-the-board vilification of all religions and patronizing attitude towards religious/spiritual individuals. I don't think it helps achieve atheist political aims, nor do I think it encourages a truly healthy debate, and I think it ends up making what could be a dynamic, positive intellectual movement into a force of negativity.
To clarify, for me respecting an individual whose opinions you don't agree with would involve stepping back and imagining that that person has reasons for believing/thinking the way they do, giving them the benefit of the doubt and imagining that they have thought issues through and perhaps being curious about what their thought processes are/engaging in discussion, and, if upon further examination you feel that they just aren't thinking things through, letting that go and finding some other point of connection with the person, rather than wasting time calling these people "stupid."
All the great movements for change have concentrated on finding common ground and working together with diverse groups of people. One of the main complaints with religion is that it is judgmental and divisive. All I'm saying is that atheism can also be judgmental and divisive, and just because there is better evidence for it, doesn't mean that there should be any less concern with building a kind world capable of progressing together.
I guess what I'm saying is - is it more important to prove one's self right and superior and have fun laughing at religious people getting annoyed or is it important to build connections with moderate religious people in order to achieve ends such as separating church and state or simply building a better world in general.
For all they're hyped, religious fundamentalists aren't in the majority and there are plenty of religious people out there willing to have a dialogue about a non-Christianified nation if people reach out with kindness.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 04:38 am (UTC)I'm not interested in arguing with you or discussing your personal transformation, which is why I didn't reply to you.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 04:40 am (UTC)This discussion isn't about your issues with whether or not you feel smarter than other people.
If I've decided I don't necessarily want to be a uniter, and I've stated that clearly, more than once, why do you keep trying to convince me otherwise?
Why are you still posting to this thread? Do you think *you're* accomplishing anything?
I'm finding it really hard not to be rude to you, Jen. I didn't ask, in any part of this discussion, for a lecture on how I should treat religious people.
Don't like how atheists talk about things? Fine. Don't talk to them.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 04:45 am (UTC)But I really hope that we can talk about why this is upsetting both of us in person or in another format when you're ready.
Love,
Jen
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 04:58 am (UTC)You openly admit you haven't read either The End of Faith or The God Delusion, and you base your opinions solely on one interview in The Sun, and the image I posted. I would LOVE to loan you The God Delusion. Truly. Richard Dawkins is an excellent author and wonderful at explaining things better than I ever could.
I have, in the past, proven myself perfectly capable of talking to religious people and people I disagree with, in a sane and compassionate manner. I have learned the hard way not to rise to the bait on discussions about veganism, for example. So believe it or not, I am capable of it.
But the way you have spoken to me, over and over, in this discussion, has infuriated me. It has been *extremely* difficult not to be outright rude to you.
I have told you--more than once--that I'm tired of talking about the subject, and you kept coming back and posting long lectures to me.
I have also told you, more than once, that how you and I or anyone else feels about the subject, does not change the objective idea of whether or not there is a god. You keep trying to mix those two things up. They're separate discussions.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 05:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 05:03 am (UTC)Also, please please stop lecturing people on their own journals. You're doing it to Cliff. I hope he deals with it better than I do.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-11 04:34 am (UTC)