Now that just warms my atheist heart

[aprilstarchild]

Story Here!

There was a campaign on buses in England, paid for by a Humanist group, that just says: "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

Christian groups predictably threw a hissy fit.

Comments

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

It's because faith, when it is faith, has absolutely nothing to do with science.

Well at least we can agree on that.

If god exists, that would have profound implications for science. There is no good evidence for god existing.

I'm not sorry if I have trouble respecting people who are willing to state out loud they believe in things without evidence.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

I'm not trying to attack you here, April, but does it feel good to disrespect people?

I mean, disagreeing with people and working towards the type of world we want is one thing, but disrespecting others doesn't seem to achieve much.

As much as I hate the policies George W. Bush put through and as much as I would like to see all of them overturned, it seems like a waste of time at best to make fun of him. Sure, I need to vent steam once in a while, but ultimately my goal would be to love everyone - even George W. You can love and respect someone and totally disagree with them and actively pursue opposite interests. These aren't incompatible.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I think it's pointless to respect or love people who are actively hurting others. I really don't think my loving him will do any good.

And it doesn't matter whether or not it feels good to respect people or not. That's *not* what I posted this for, that's not what I wanted to talk about.

Every time, it seems to me, that we get into a discussion about atheism vs. agnosticism vs. religion, or a discussion about science vs. non-science, somehow the discussion becomes about how we feel about those things, or how we should respect people who feel differently.

Whether or not I respect people who feel differently isn't the issue. Whether or not something is true or isn't, THAT'S the issue.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

Then we have come down to the fundamental source of disagreement.

For me the point of life, science, religion, and everything in general is creating a world in which people respect and love each other and in which people behave with respect and love towards each other, animals, the environment, etc.

So when a philosophical debate, science or religion furthers these goals, that is what matters.

There is certainly worthiness and value in truth also, but when caring about the truth compromises love and respect I think it stops being as valuable.

That is a philosophical disagreement between us. I care about whether or not things or true and as a former philosophy major (and I was intense about that major) I spent a fair amount of time examining my assumptions and learning logic.

But I'm pointedly not trying to argue here about what is true or isn't, so that's not the issue for me. The issue for me is whether these arguments are producing happiness and love or whether they aren't.

So I've clarified that, and I don't feel like I need to say anything more here. I didn't mean to rain on your parade and if you'd prefer I don't have to discuss these things on your journal anymore.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I think that all of those are important. Obviously I do.

But I think that truth has a value of its own. Scientific truth has a value separate from whether it helps anyone or not.

The pursuit of scientific truth should of course not harm anyone (and I include animals and the environment in that "anyone"), but as someone who loves science and loves learning more about how the world and universe works, I can't agree that all science should be judged on whether it improves the world beyond expanding our knowledge.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

I think I should also say that I, too, care deeply about truth. I went into my philosophy major with the honest desire to discover "the meaning of life."

But I think there are different ways to pursue truth, and different schools of truth to pursue.

I think scientific truth can often be very important and it should be pursued.

But - I think without a set of values that guide how science is applied things can go awry very quickly.

And finding those values or some truth about those values is more the type of truth that I care about.

In discovering ethical truths I feel religion can be very helpful and that less quantifiable human experience and things like religion are more helpful in discovering ethical truths which decide how we apply scientific truths.

Philosophy and logical argument are helpful too, but most philosophical ethical arguments will at one point come down to a discussion of something unquantifiable - the "good". Good isn't something you can measure on an instrument or see with your eyes. No matter how logical the arguments, it's something that we come across on the intuitive level. Unless, of course, you don't believe there is a good. And that's a defensible argument.

But most of us do go through the world believing that something is better than another thing in any given decision and most of us can tell the difference between something which is merely good for us and something which is good for the world.

I find religion particularly useful here, because there are points on which most major religions agree - that we should love one another, forgive, that we should treat others as we would like to be treated, that we shouldn't kill (not that most religions actually remember to PRACTICE this last one). But the ideals expressed in these belief systems are good starting points for talks about ethical truths.

And I'm still trying to find the meaning of life, or at least a good set of guidelines...

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

And to clarify - I'm not saying I'm great at this. I make fun of people all the time and disrespect people all the time on some level. That "Fear God and Obey Him" guy didn't earn too much of my respect. But I'd like to not do that.

I think that through respecting people we disagree with, that's how we can affect change and make the world a better place.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I have no responsibility or duty to respect people who believe actively harmful things, or who believe in things contrary to reality.

I might think they have value as human beings--for instance, I don't want them murdered or tortured or made to go hungry.

But I don't have to respect their opinions any more than I do a schizophrenic person's.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

Okay. I said I wouldn't say anything more but -

I think there is a difference between respecting a person's opinions and respecting their intelligence and then also respecting them as a human being.

I think respecting someone as a human being is a minimum level.

Respecting someone's intelligence or faculties is another step. And that would mean that whether or not you agree with them or came to the same conclusions you would respect that they had worked things out for themselves, or at least give them the benefit of the doubt. I think it's really easy for us to believe that people who disagree with us are just plain wrong or that they aren't thinking or being willfully ignorant. While that might be the case sometimes, I'm still not sure if that makes a person unworthy of respect. Everyone fucks up at something. I think on those grounds it would be just as reasonable to disrespect anyone who cut in line or made fun of someone. Because kindness is also a value. But best of all, I think, is to try mightily to continue respecting people.

Then there's respecting someone's opinion. But an opinion is separate from a person. So that's not too troublesome, though I think it's good to try to give people the benefit of the doubt on their opinions too, as long as those opposing opinions aren't doing any active harm.

But that's me. You have no responsibility or duty to do this, of course. But everyone likes to feel respected and valued and I think it's the best environment for free discourse.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I stepped away from the computer and decided to come back and reword things a little:

I respect people as people.

But I can strongly disagree with people's opinions. I don't respect someone's opinion that I am Teh Evil because I've had sex with girls and boys and I'm not married and I don't love Jesus. I don't respect people's belief in an entity they cannot prove exists.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

That last example is interesting, because I would break it down like this -

- people believing you're evil because you're bisexual is a form of other people disrespecting your beliefs and lifestyle and deciding that you are wrong and they are right, and I would say that disrespect and judgment are at the root of that, rather than religion

whereas, unless it is used to dictate how things are taught in school or some other matter of public interest a simple belief in an entity that someone can't prove is fairly innocuous and doesn't really hurt anybody in and of itself.

And - I would add - by the dictates of philosophy where you throw out all assumptions including whether and how much one can trust one's senses - you can't prove anything exists. Maybe your own consciousness and even that is on shaky grounds.

For the practical purposes of day to day life we must assume that certain things are provable but absolute proof of anything? You can measure things with instruments, but then you have to prove that the instruments exist.

Hell, I'm such an agnostic, I'm not even sure if I believe in doubt.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

If we can't use evidence to back up our ideas, this discussion is over.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

All I'm trying to do with the above is show you where I'm coming from. In that most philosophy will at least pay heed to the school of total doubt of everything. That's a big part of what formed me.

I know that type of philosophy isn't for everybody, but I do think it's a legitimate tradition.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

In other news:

Aw aw! Aw aw!

(this is getting too tense and I need to let out some pterodactyl noises....)

Aw aw! Aw aw aw!

[ourglasslake.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with everything you've said in this comment. Just sayin'.