Now that just warms my atheist heart

[aprilstarchild]

Story Here!

There was a campaign on buses in England, paid for by a Humanist group, that just says: "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

Christian groups predictably threw a hissy fit.

Comments

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I think it's pointless to respect or love people who are actively hurting others. I really don't think my loving him will do any good.

And it doesn't matter whether or not it feels good to respect people or not. That's *not* what I posted this for, that's not what I wanted to talk about.

Every time, it seems to me, that we get into a discussion about atheism vs. agnosticism vs. religion, or a discussion about science vs. non-science, somehow the discussion becomes about how we feel about those things, or how we should respect people who feel differently.

Whether or not I respect people who feel differently isn't the issue. Whether or not something is true or isn't, THAT'S the issue.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

Then we have come down to the fundamental source of disagreement.

For me the point of life, science, religion, and everything in general is creating a world in which people respect and love each other and in which people behave with respect and love towards each other, animals, the environment, etc.

So when a philosophical debate, science or religion furthers these goals, that is what matters.

There is certainly worthiness and value in truth also, but when caring about the truth compromises love and respect I think it stops being as valuable.

That is a philosophical disagreement between us. I care about whether or not things or true and as a former philosophy major (and I was intense about that major) I spent a fair amount of time examining my assumptions and learning logic.

But I'm pointedly not trying to argue here about what is true or isn't, so that's not the issue for me. The issue for me is whether these arguments are producing happiness and love or whether they aren't.

So I've clarified that, and I don't feel like I need to say anything more here. I didn't mean to rain on your parade and if you'd prefer I don't have to discuss these things on your journal anymore.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I think that all of those are important. Obviously I do.

But I think that truth has a value of its own. Scientific truth has a value separate from whether it helps anyone or not.

The pursuit of scientific truth should of course not harm anyone (and I include animals and the environment in that "anyone"), but as someone who loves science and loves learning more about how the world and universe works, I can't agree that all science should be judged on whether it improves the world beyond expanding our knowledge.

[jenhowell.livejournal.com]

I think I should also say that I, too, care deeply about truth. I went into my philosophy major with the honest desire to discover "the meaning of life."

But I think there are different ways to pursue truth, and different schools of truth to pursue.

I think scientific truth can often be very important and it should be pursued.

But - I think without a set of values that guide how science is applied things can go awry very quickly.

And finding those values or some truth about those values is more the type of truth that I care about.

In discovering ethical truths I feel religion can be very helpful and that less quantifiable human experience and things like religion are more helpful in discovering ethical truths which decide how we apply scientific truths.

Philosophy and logical argument are helpful too, but most philosophical ethical arguments will at one point come down to a discussion of something unquantifiable - the "good". Good isn't something you can measure on an instrument or see with your eyes. No matter how logical the arguments, it's something that we come across on the intuitive level. Unless, of course, you don't believe there is a good. And that's a defensible argument.

But most of us do go through the world believing that something is better than another thing in any given decision and most of us can tell the difference between something which is merely good for us and something which is good for the world.

I find religion particularly useful here, because there are points on which most major religions agree - that we should love one another, forgive, that we should treat others as we would like to be treated, that we shouldn't kill (not that most religions actually remember to PRACTICE this last one). But the ideals expressed in these belief systems are good starting points for talks about ethical truths.

And I'm still trying to find the meaning of life, or at least a good set of guidelines...